hi guys,, i have a 99 lesabre,,3.8,, the car had 63500 miles on it when i got it,,nice old car,,well taken car of
but here is the problem
when i am driving down the road it has a mis or shudder,,this thing sometimes shakes the whole car,,then goes away,,comes back,,it can be very mild at times but it is there,,it does it at idle too like when stopped and changing from drive to reverse,,it will stuble,,so i kinda ruled out the tranny,,but i still have an open mind,, and too it seems to be worse the hotter it gets,,doesn't seem to affect mileage car runs and drives great other than this,,i know something is going on,,just can't seem to find it,,i have had my engine scanner plugged in,,everything looks good,,leave it plugged in and drive it to work checking along the way,,look at snapshot charts it makes,,i don't see anything going on,,,,,,WHAT UP here

things i have done
changed to dorman intake,,i thought may as well head this off early
changed plugs and wires
changed 1 coil,,post were corroded
also changed 2 of the tires,,belts had shifted in one of them,,the shudder kinda feels like a really bad tire out of balance,,but then goes away and comes back,,,when i found this i thought i found the problem,, BUT NO I DIDN'T

ok i am running out of things to change here,,,my next thought is this motor has a,, or more than one bad injector

i am open to any and all thought here guys,,,this is driving me nuts,,little help would be greatly appreciated

ANY IDEAS????

thanks
ocharry

Welcome to the forum. Have you checked the other coils to see if they were corroded too?

yes i have checked the other coils,,but just a visual,,not saying that there couldn't be a problem with one of the others

i did think about buying another new one and change one of the other two and if no change use the one i ake off in the last spot,,just a thought

come on guys,,,,i know somebody out there has the answer,,lol

ocharry

wow guys,,,no response,,well 1 response and i thank you

i would have figured there would be lots of motor heads here:confused:

you guys are letting me down on this:o

kinda looks like i am on my own to figure this one out:(

thanks anyway

ocharry

will it "miss/shudder" if you power brake?
you said ",,i have had my engine scanner plugged in,,".
were there any codes?
will your scanner show misfire history?
what brand plugs and wires did you install?

Also, is it speed related?

pafman;

well i have never tried to power brake the car
yes i have 2 scanners,,they both will show miss fire codes,,,NEITHER will show a miss fire code while plugged in to this car and the one scanner will take a 2min. history scan while you drive and then i can print out a graph or graphs of the things it is looking at,, not showing anything

they were ac iridium plugs,, think that's how you spell it,, and i don't remember the wire brand but they were the best ones they had with a lifetime warranty,,,well they did have better ones i think but they were racing stuff,,i didn't think i needed that for driving down the road every day

the problem i have is ,,, this motor was acting the very same way BEFORE i changed all this stuff,,,so nothing i have done to date has changed anything

hanky;

no it doesn't seem to be speed related,,it does the same thing at 25mph,,,65mph don't matter

i will say,,,it does seem worse at the low speeds,,that my be because the firing sequence is slower,,and at 65 it is firing pretty fast

i really think i have an injector that is having an issue,,,it definitely has something to do with heat,,seems like when its cold out it isn't as bad until the motor warms up,,,just like night before last,, when i left work,,it was running great for about 25 miles,,then it started again,,,it is always intermittent,,,,may be fine for 10 miles and then do the miss thing for 2 and quit for ten ,,, you never know for how long it will last or when it will happen

when i had the scanner on it i would wait until it started doing it and push the reset to start the running scan,,,or so it would take a snapshot of it while it was happening,,,i didn't see anything,,,comparing bad snapshot to good snapshot

i do know it is making my head hurt,,,lol

thanks guys,, keep thinking

ocharry

I didn't any mention of changing the fuel filter,has that been done?
Did you consider putting a bottle of injector cleaner or one full tank of premium gas .Either one will help with sticky injectors.

you should get misfire counts with faulty injectors. i would turn attention elsewhere for now.

give me a reading of your short term and long term fuel trims cold then hot. and do the power brake thing for me too, cold then hot.

hanky;

i haven't changed the fuel filter on this car yet
i did run premium fuel and injector cleaner through it for about 2 weeks,,that would be about 5 fill ups for me,, and i used 5 different cleaners,,lol,,, just in case,,,the reason for not looking at the filter is i get about 50 lbs fuel pressure key on motor not running,,,,and if i remember it was about 43-44 lbs motor running,,,i am not saying that isn't a good idea,,,but i have fuel at the rail and good pressure

i will say there was an improvement,,,it didn't go away,,BUT it was better,,by better,,i mean it didn't seem to happen as much AND when it did happen it was milder,,,,that's kinda what has lead me to fuel delivery

pafman;

i get no codes,,with either reader,,when i had the graph reader plugged in it was on the way to work,,so it was hooked up for over an hour,,i don't know maybe i don't know what i am looking at,,lol

do you think i would get a miss fire code even if it isn't a complete miss fire???? just a really lean mix,,, i don't think there would be a code if the injector was only about half working,,i don't think i am seeing a dead miss,,,just kinda like it isn't getting all the fuel it should into the cylinder,,or maybe more than 1,,if that makes any sense,,,and does it have to miss more the once to cause a code to show?? and will a code show if say an injector was fluttering,,like not a good solid pulse,,or not opening all the way or closing all the way,,,i have been talking to an injector guy ,,this is all he does ,,, and he says these rochester injectors have a bad rep,,,and the low miles on the care tells me it has sat around a lot,,well until i got it anyway,,he says that isn't good for the injectors,,i don't know about that ,,i have to rely on his expertise

ok i will try and get you some readings,,cold trim,,hmm when the motor is cold isn't it running in a loop that is a little rich until the temp sensors say ok we are at run temp start leaning out to run mixture,,,and warm after running for a few,,,ok i will see what i can do for you

ok i can do the power brake thing for ya,,are we looking to see if it is gona miss while the motor is under load??

ok guys i will try and get you the info you ask for,,may be monday or tuesday,,,but i will try,,,,anything else i need to look at??

thanks
ocharry

Just a reminder, fuel pressure is only 1/2 the story the other 1/2 is fuel volume.
It could possibly be a fuel filter or pump issue.

yes sir i under stand pressure and volume are two different things,,,i guess it wont hurt anything to just change the filter,,they are relatively cheap,, and it shouldn't take very long to do it

i will pick one up and put it on the to do list for this weekend while i am changing oil

ocharry

ok i'm back

pafman;

i did the power break thing for you,,not sure what i was looking for ,,i guess a miss when the pressure was on,,,didn't see anything,, no miss or vibration ,,nothing,,,but if that is what i was looking for,,,there are times when i am driving down the road when this old girl doesn't have a problem too,, and it could be for miles,, the problem isn't always there,,it is intermittent

i did the power break thing right after i started it,,took it up to about 2-2500 rpm for about 30sec,,,,nothing,,i drove it to town and stopped at the post office left it running,,when i came out i did it again ,, nothing,,,i drove to work,,which is 60 miles on the highway and did it again in the parking lot,,,nothing?????

as for the trm numbers,

ST FTRM 1% 0.0
LT FTRM 1% 0.0
ST FTRM 11% 14.1

these were the test results while running down the highway,,, cruse on 65mph,,,i was watching the numbers and they were moving around some,,i think that's what they are supposed to do with varying road and throttle conditions,,weather conditions were windy,,driving quartering into a SW wind

air intake sensor said 63*,,,motor run temp 194-199*

when the engine was cold the trim numbers were moving around from -.8 through -2.3 ,,,,they would cycle through those no. just repeating until the temp started to come up,,, when the motor was warmed up,,the numbers were similar,,but while driving down the road they did have a wider spread,, i think that is where the 11% thing is coming from,,i didn't wright the numbers down ,,kinda hard to drive and play with the scanner and right stuff down ,lol,,,,,also i would think the computer is watching fuel delivery and it should be varying with load conditions if everything is working right,, so the numbers should be moving around,,right??

all system checks were OK,,,,no codes

ok i think i got all the info you wanted

and if you think i should look elsewhere for the problem,,,you got any ideas where to look???? cuz i am out

i am going to change the oil this weekend,, and the fuel filter as suggested by hanky,,i put a new one in my oil box yesterday

i don't know maybe my scanner isn't as good as i thought it was,,it is telling me there isn't a problem,,, i think,,but i know SOMETHIG is amiss ,,lol,,pun there,,,,i feel it every time i drive it

ok,,guys anything else??? any thoughts??? things to look at or check???


thanks
ocharry

i wanted to see what the lt ftrm hot was too. if the lt trim is going up fairly high, you have a lean condition where the pcm it attempting to richen up the fuel mix. and the opposite is the case with a negative lt frim.

i once had this 01 gp with a 3.4 in the shop. when cold it ran fine but hot it would act up. it was misfiring but not recording them. after MUCH grief it turned out to be the reluctor on the balancer and the crank sensor. it was off enough to cause some slightly odd firing and a very high lt trim (which also destroyed the cat). i'm not saying to replace your's, but it may be worth a look into.

hi pafman;

well i had my scanner record the three fuel trim readings

so i went to the LT TRM and walked through the graph for you,,, it took 408 frames and i will read it for you ,,here we go

at frame 0,,it was reading 0.0,, kinda looks like just before that it was at .8,,and dropped to 0.0 at frame 0

at frame 33 it went back to .8
at frame 69 it went back to 0.0
at frame72 it went to -.8
at frame 233 it went back to 0.0
at frame262 it went to -.8
at frame 265 it went to -1.6
at frame 393 it went to -.8
at frame 400 it went back to 0.0

between the frame changes it was a flat line,,,so if i am reading this right,, the total swing here is 1%

all i have is the numbers this scanner is recording,,i don't really know what they are telling me,, or how big of a swing i can have and still be in what is,, " A GOOD ZONE "

i will say i notice the timing on this motor,, seemed kinda high to me but maybe that's how the newer motors operate,, was up around 40*,,IIRC
quite a change from the old days when i was making big ponies,,lol

so tell me about this reluctor,,is it a sensor on the block that reads crank position from the balancer for timing,,or other things,,, where is it located?? what does it tell the pcm?? is it on the balancer its self and the sensor is mounted to the motor to read the crank?? can it be moved to read differently?? man i got 50 questions about this one

tell me tell me ,,,LOL

also this may or may not help us with the run down,,,,this motor what ever is wrong with it and i'm sure there is a problem somewhere,,,,is still getting 30.5 to 31.5 mpg,, i have seen it at just over 32 a time or two ,, that could have been a good strong tail wind tho,,,,but it is consistently right in the 30.5 -31 range,,, and it seems to like shell gasoline better than other brands,,,,i had a 90 beretta that really liked BP gasoline,,,go figure

also it starts fine,, hot or cold,, when warm it does a very mild serg,, most people may not notice it,,like when i come to a stop,,brake on in gear,, there is a very small fluctuation going on,,if you look close you can see the tach riding it,, needle is moving with it,,i may be just super sensitive now because i'm looking for a tell here,,lol,, i don't know,,,just giving you all the info i have ,, or think i have

ok you have what i have,,difference here is you know what to do with it,, so please look the info over and let me know what you think,,,, and if you need more or other info i will try and make it happen,,, i really would like to put this to bed

thanks very much

ocharry

ok, i thought you were giving me hot and cold compairisons and left off the hot LT. lt looks fine to me.

the reluctor is nothing more than a metal ring that blocks the cps (crank postition sensor) from seeing itself in an on and off manner. picture the top of a rook in a chess set. if for some reason it moves or become damaged, all sorts of goofy things can occur. but i will add this would be VERY unlikely.

with your decription of it getting worse the hotter the engine gets, it sounds very cps related. could also be an ignition module.

the cps is located behind the crank balancer, and will require a balancer puller to change. the ignition module is located under the coils and will require much $$$ to change and a 5.5 mm socket.

you may want to have your MAF sensor (mass air flow) sensor cleaned. i would recommend letting a pro do this as they are VERY fragile and VERY $$$. it shouldn't cost much to do this and may solve the issue as well.

with out feeling it myself and being able to view data when malfunctioning it is very hard to make a judgement.

thanks for the input,,

i did buy a coil set and module used from a 98 with 43000 miles on it,, i thought i would change it out as a unit,,surely if the symptoms don't change that should rule out the coil and module,,,if that were to make a difference at least i will know what direction to look

well the crank sensor isn't a problem,,i have a balancer puller,, i still have those kind of tools from the old days when i was building motors,, maybe my old school stuff won't work on this newer stuff ,, we shall see

is there any way to check the crank sensor???

as for the mass air,,hmmm well i guess i will save that for last,,,since i am guessing,,,i will go for the cheaper stuff and see how it goes

yes i know about you not being able to feel what is happening,,,and the big problem is it is so sporadic

so,, oil change tomorrow,,and a fuel filter change and coil and module swap out

i can't thank you enough for the input,,and guidance,,,we will see where this leads

i will keep you up to date

thanks again

ocharry

Among the things it could be are;
Crank sensor,Ignition module,possible cracked spark plug, plug wire with a questionable connection. What brand plugs and wires did you install?
I know replacing a crank sensor can be a pain, but without some special diagnostic equip we're flying blind. Does the vehicle have a tach? If it does, when the misfire occurs , does the tach lose its signal and drop to almost 0 ?

hanky is right on with the crank sensor diagnosis, it's pretty indepth for a forum. but remember, the pcm is not registering any misfires, so that should rule out plugs or wires. i have seen ign modules & crank sensors cause wierd running symptoms without registering misfires.

also, a standard balancer puller will not have the attachment for pulling a 3.8 balancer. the threaded hole at the front of a 3.8 crank is VERY deep, and unless your puller has a VERY long arbor you will need this. i made my own attachment. you take a grade 8 7/16th (it may be a 1/2 inch but i will check mine) bolt, about 4 in long. put it in a vice and cut off the head (making it 3 in long). take a center punch and strike it in the center of the cut area. than drill into the center (7/16 bit) just untill you have a nice inverted cone for the puller cone tip to mate into. then after you remove the balancer bolt, you insert this new "tool" into the crankshaft and pull away. just remember to pull it out when finished!

instaling a new cps can be difficult to line up correctly so the reluctor does not contact the new cps! be very careful compairing the mounting of the old cps and new cps.

hanky;

i did replace the wires and plugs,,the problem didn't change from old plugs and wires to new plugs and wires,,,but they were ac iridium plugs and what ever the best wire set they carry at oreilly's i don't remember the brand name,,i used to use bosh wires but they don't have a lifetime warranty anymore,,,only 1 year,,,these plug wires had a lifetime warranty so that's what i went with,,seems like they were about 50 bucks,,,and the price of those plugs,,wow what a change in price,, and i did use the dielectric grease on both ends of the wires when i put them on,, and under the new coil when i changed it

i am going to change out the coil pack and module today,,hopefully that should eliminate the module and possibly another could be bad coil or weak coil

yes this car does have a tach,,and no when the problem is happening it doesn't go to 0,,,,BUT the RPM does vary some,, the tach will show a 100-200 swing,,,i have watched it and it is moving around when the whatever we are calling this thing,, when it is happening,,i thought that could be just the tach,,,and like i said in one of the other posts,,,when i get off the highway going to work there is a light i have to stop at and i,,just the other day noticed sitting there at the light that the engine was changing idle speed if you will,,kind of a really mild surge,,and the tach was riding that little wave,,up and down,,,may have only been 100-150 RPM,, but it was there

also when this motor is hot from running down the highway it does have a very noticeable stumble from drive to reverse when i change gears in the parking lot,,,sometimes its worse than others

and too there are times when it does this that it is no doubt a miss,,,it will be running fine,, then BAM,,1 miss,,,and back to running fine,,,i know this is a lot of stuff i'm throwing out here on the table for you guys to digest,,just want you to have all the info i can give you ,,,and i understand we are shooting in the dark


pafman;

i see what you are saying ,, all i need to do is fill up the crank hole so i don't mess up the threads,,,i can put a bolt in the lathe and make what you are talking about in a jiffy ,, no problem

ok guys i got to get at it here,,,THANK YOU BOTH VERY MUCH,,for hanging in there with me,,,and i hope i am not to much of a pain in the butt with this,,, but i am determined to figure this out,,one way or another

thanks again

ocharry

Appears you installed good quality parts.
The tach gets it's signal from the crank sensor and to me that would confirm the crank sensor is not sending a consistent signal to the ign module. If the back of the crank pulley is clean and in decent shape , it appears the crank sensor is causing the problem.

hi guys ,, sorry for taking so long to get back here ,, been kinda busy with other things

i think i can safely say that the ignition module and the coils,,ARE NOT the problem,,changed the whole unit out,,still running the same

neither one of you guys have even mentioned the injectors,, so you don't think there could be a bad 1 or 2 ???

and i was looking at the crank sensor,,man is it gona be a supper size pain to get that thing off,,unless i can go through the wheel well,, i need to set down with this thing and and see how this needs to happen

i'll be back

ocharry

If you decide to go after the Crank sensor,get the car up on jack stands after you loosen the serp belt.
Then remove the R/F wheel, behind that you should see a plastic grille that you can remove to gain access to the pulley & bolt. The crank sensor is located right behind the pulley at about the 2 O' clock position. You could get lucky and the pulley may just come off without too much trouble even without a puller. Once off you will see how simple it all is. As pafman stated , you need to get that sensor correctly positioned so it doesn't get hit by any of the notches on the pulley. You can get it pretty close and once you are satisfied it won't contact anything on the pulley you can finish snugging it up. The rest , if you were lucky getting the pulley off , will usually go back on fairly easily.

how many miles are on it now?

hanky;

well i will probably wait until Easter weekend to try this,,i have a few days off and i wouldn't have to hurry and get it back together that way

so when i put a new sensor on,,,does it need to be within a certain range of the reluctor to read the breaks?? kinda like the magnet on a small engine reading the flywheel??? sounds pretty much the same,, the sensor is reading the breaks or notches inside the balancer and sending that info somewhere to be LOL decoded

is closer better?? for a stronger signal,,,or if i get it in the .060 gap range good enough?? or will the new one go back on in about the same place and work fine??


pafman;

when i got the car it had 63500 miles on it and now it has 78300 on it

so i have put about 13000 miles on it and it has been doing it all the way


i did notice while i was changing the coil pack out and going over everything else for the 50th time,, i never picked up on this before,, looks like one of the injector plugs have been changed,,it's different than the other 5,,,the wires look like the have been soldered and heat shrink,,, my question is could this thing be wired backwards,,like positive where the negative should be,,,will that make a difference in how the injector works???

let me know what you think about this new development,,,or if it matters

thanks

ocharry

You don't have too much room to play with, just try to get the slots in the sensor somewhat centered with the reluctor tangs and that usually works just fine.
As far as the injector wiring , I would just make sure that I had the same color wire in the same side of the plug as all the other injector plugs.

In my 1999 gave simular problems caused by the crankshaft sensor ( stumble while running, start to die then went on.). It did not give a code for a month..On mine it wouldnt start about an hour after driving it. wait a little longer and it would start..I think it was do to the heat build up under the hood..this was in the summer which made it worse..Anyway I could not get the nut off the crank ,had the local service station do it for $75 labor..not bad..Good luck

ok guys i will give it a good look and see what i need or how i'm gona proceed with this

i have been looking at a new puller-installer set up,, may need to get one of these to help with replacing the balancer,,and it sure would be nice if it didn't take gorilla pressure to get it off and back on

i will be back with the results of this

cross your fingers,, i have mine crossed

ocharry

I'm back

well crank sensor is new and installed................NO CIGAR

dang it,,, that didn't do it either,,,the motor does seem to start better,,but still has the symptoms

anything else you guys can think of???

i'm lost

ocharry

The fact that it happens both at low idle and over 45 MPH, to me would eliminate the EGR system.
I am beginning to wonder about why that injector plug was changed or wiring repaired.
What you might try is wiggling the injector plugs and wires while it is running and see if you can get any kind of noticeable action while trying this.
Another thing you could try since we are grabbing at straws would be to replace 3 injectors. If no change switch with the other three. It seems like a lot of work ,but not bad compared to what you have already done. Just make sure you use new "O" rings each time.
You have aroused my interest and curiosity and I will try to suggest some tries that won't cost too much to do.
If you don't get any results soon it could always be the PCM.
Sometimes you can duplicate the problem using a hair dryer to heat the PCM and see what you get, as long as you don't try to fry eggs on it.

thanks hanky,,,

well i will say that there could have been something wrong with that crank sensor,,since i have been driving it the last two days and put about 250 or so miles on it i have noticed the tac has stopped the moving around it was doing,,,seems strong and steady now,,so i'm not gona say the sensor wasn't needed or didn't do anything,,,i guess it was worth the effort

as for the injector plug,,,well i had it on and off a few times,,,it fits snug on the injector,,,it looks like some one has cut the harness and soldered this new plug on,, the plug has about 2" of wire coming out of it and is attached to the harness,,,the wires on the plug are red and black i think,,and the harness wires were both a yellow or lite orange i would say,,,one was solid and one has a black line on it,,,the red wire on the plug is on the positive side of the injector,,as it will only fit on there one way,,but i don't know which wire is positive coming out of the harness,,,so,, who ever did the replacement could have gotten them switched if they weren't paying attention,,,does it matter,,,i don't know,,,, and i have asked this question to several people,,2 of which work on cars for a living,, like you i am assuming,, and they don't know if it would matter either???

ok now you know what i know,,, well i'm sure you know way more than i do,,,lol

thanks,,,please keep thinkin on this,,,i'm game,,i would like to put this thing to bed

ocharry

There is a very simple way to check the wiring.
Either with a test lite or voltmeter, turn the key on and check which terminal on the injector plugs you can get to, and unplug the plug. The same one on each injector plug should lite the lite or read 12 volts. They should all be in the same side of the injector plugs.
The other wire is the ground from the PCM to fire the injector and should show no reading when disconnected.

thanks for the info on the injector plug voltage,,sounds easy enough to check that out,,,i will try and get to it this weekend

they are saying we might have to work saturday,,,can't miss that,,but i will try and get to it and get you a report here on the wires

thanks a bunch

ocharry

Och,
I would also like to know the problem.
I have essentially the identical problem on my 2000 Lesabre.

I was driving along one day a week ago, and suddenly - the problem popped up. i.e. an intermittent miss, shudder or surge. It happens mainly after the engine has reached normal operating temperature.

I have done the following.
New crankcase position sensor
New throttle position sensor
New fuel filter
New Maf sensor
New ignition module and coils

None of these things have had any effect at all on the issue.

When I was driving the car today with a scan tool on the car, I noticed that the
ST FTRM 1 value changed from its normal .3 - 4 all of the way up to 12 or 15.

So, I assume that this is telling me that the engine is running very lean, and the computer is trying to increase the fuel mix to the engine.

After searching, and searching - and really coming up with nothing conclusive -
I am heading toward injector replacement.
I have found a new set of injectors for a decent price and I will have them in hand in a day or two.

I have checked the fuel pressure and it is a steady 44 - both before changing the fuel filter and after.
The car actually runs quite well if the MAF sensor is disconnected, but I assume that that is happenning because the engine is running very rich under this condition. Since the problem only happens when the engine is warm and has leaned out, the disconnected MAF sensor is masking the problem.

Since I was just driving when the problem suddenly occurred and has never disappeared since (i.e. for the last two weeks); I am leaning toward a partially plugged injector that is not giving me a good spray pattern.

I did run a heavy duty dose of injector cleaner through the vehicle, and it seemed to help for a very short time, but the problem is now; essentially the same as it was from the beginning.

If anyone has any more thoughts; I would certainly appreciate it.

Ok I'm back,,sorry for the delay

Haven't had time to mess with the car,, but this weekend I have an oil change due so I will be checking the voltage on these wires to the injectors.

hflier;

Glad you chimed in on this ,, sorry you are seeing my symptoms,,and since you changed the MAF and TPS,, I would think you just saved me a few bucks,,, but I am down to only a few things to swap out,,and like hanky has said it could very well be the BRAIN BOX,,lol

For you I have a little test,,and that is what kinda had me thinking about injectors.....

For 2 weeks i ran high test gas and a bottle of cleaner every time I filled up my 99 Lesabre,,and it did seem to help BUT it didn't make the problem go away,,,as soon as I went back to regular and no cleaner,,right back to the way it was

So this weekend I am going to do some checking with a volt meter like hanky has suggested and do some other checks to maybe stumble onto something that will flag a problem

If you change out the injectors,, PLEASE ,,PLEASE get back here with the results,,,I am really interested in what you find or if it changes anything

Thanks for all the input guys

ocharry

Usually when you disconnect the MAF sensor and the problem is gone indicates that the MAF sensor is defective. Just because it's new doesn't mean it can't be defective. Hope you purchased it from a GM dealership. They don't usually sell defective ones!

Ok I'm back

hanky;

I checked the voltage on the injector plugs,,looks like the different one is wired the same as the others,,I mean the pos. is on the same side or wire as the other two I checked

While I was there I checked the impedance across the front three injectors,, I was getting 1 ohm,,, I think I am reading the meter right,,when it was connected to the injector it didn't go to zero,,only went to the 1,,,just curios,,should the reading be zero??? or should I see some resistance???

Now I don't know if this is telling me anything or not,,I had the meter there and it seemed like the thing to do,,,lol

So I had 12v on the wires to the injector and 1 ohm resistance on the injector it's self??

Thanks

ocharry

Finally I gave up on trying to fix my car myself.
I took it to the garage who had $$$ worth of scanners that I did not own.
They found the problem to be the MAF sensor to be bad.

The 2nd thing that I had changed was the MAF sensor. But the "new" sensor that I had put into the vehicle was defective.

When I talked to the garage, they had found that they had had a very very high failure rate with rebuilt MAF sensors. So they have changed their policy to use only new Delco or Hitachi MAF sensors. Since they have changed their policy to using only New MAF sensors, they have had a very very log rate of return.

The car runs like new now.

Although I put in quite a few items that were not actually required to fix the hesitation issue, I am not really unhappy because it had been many thousands of miles since I had last worked on the vehicle and many of these items were at the normal time of replacement - i.e.
fuel filter, spark plugs, plug wires, injectors, coil and ignition module, and throttle position senor.

The vehicle runs like new.

Thanks so much for all of the feedback that I have received on this forum

REW
Minneapolis

hflier,
Thank you for sharing the solution with us. That's how we all learn.